[Ndca-l] Ndca-l Digest, Vol 57, Issue 14

Sara Sanchez slcathena
Wed Dec 18 13:05:00 EST 2013


I agree with Stefan's sentiment that this conversation should be limited to
the listserv right now.  I've been very hesitant to post on facebook
because I think the conversations have gotten too heated and are easily
taken out of context.  I think we are more likely to get feedback from
educators if this conversation continues in this more limited format.

I also second the thought about this being a conversation for coaches and
not debaters right now.

Sara


On Wed, Dec 18, 2013 at 11:06 AM, <ndca-l-request at lists.debatecoaches.org>wrote:

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> Today's Topics:
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>    1. Re: Issues concerning the high school community
>       (John M. Masslon II)
>    2. Re: Issues concerning the high school community (Stefan Bauschard)
>
>
> ----------------------------------------------------------------------
>
> Message: 1
> Date: Wed, 18 Dec 2013 09:48:24 -0500
> From: "John M. Masslon II" <johnmasslon at gmail.com>
> Cc: "ndca-l at lists.debatecoaches.org" <ndca-l at lists.debatecoaches.org>
> Subject: Re: [Ndca-l] Issues concerning the high school community
> Message-ID:
>         <CAMvL_nU7n=afcD2WyU==
> WQDc5r_2OFWxyQy-bXzEjgOAa9JQBQ at mail.gmail.com>
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="windows-1252"
>
> *I think this is by far the most pressing issue facing HS debate at the
> moment and am glad to see that a discussion has begun regarding our
> community?s response.  I wish I could be as eloquent and thorough as
> Manuel, Stefan, Aaron, Tara, et al, but I know that will not happen.  I
> would, however, like to add a few of my thoughts on the subject.    First,
> I think we need to begin is by looking in the mirror.  I believe that many
> of the problems that have occurred in college debate are the result of
> coaches pushing the unethical, and in some cases illegal, behavior by their
> students.  We only need to look as far as the CEDA quarterfinal round a few
> years ago to see that we, as coaches, are the ones that act in a manner
> that makes debate a hostile environment for fellow coaches and our
> students.  This is unacceptable.  I believe that the first step we should
> take in ensuring that there is no bullying, harassment, etc. by our
> students is to take forceful action against coaches that promote such
> behavior.   I know this will not be a popular sentiment, but I think we
> need to ban coaches who promote such behavior.  I run the tab room at the
> biggest HS tournament in Western Pennsylvania, and I would never allow
> Shanara Reid-Brinkley to step foot in a debate at my tournament.  If she
> chose to coach a HS team, I would not allow that team to be entered in the
> tournament.  The same would hold true for Bill Shanahan.  By eliminating
> coaches that act in such a manner from our activity, we ensure that these
> our students are not being influenced by such bad examples.  We set a
> precedent for our students that if you act in a manner that is inconsistent
> with the behavioral norms of debate, you are gone.  Thus, let us begin by
> looking in the mirror. I also think that it is important that we ensure
> that students who violate the norms of acceptable behavior at debate
> tournaments are punished accordingly.  For example, if a student tells
> his/her opponent in a round that they should kill themselves . that student
> should be done with HS debate.  That student?s coach should be the one to
> enforce such a rule, however, that is probably unrealistic.  Instead, I
> think that if a student behaves in such a manner at a tournament, the
> tournament director should inform all other tournament directors to not
> accept that student into future tournaments.  That way, a student knows
> that if their actions fall so far outside the bounds of acceptable
> behavior, they will no longer be permitted to participate in this great
> activity.   Finally, I think that the tabula rasa paradigm has gone to far.
>  I have traditionally been a fan of ?anything goes? debate and have voted
> for ?performance? teams more than I have voted against such teams.
>  However, after what we have seen in college debate recently, I have
> decided that enough is enough.  I have decided that I will no longer vote
> for such a team and will give them 0 speaks.  I hope that this stops the
> spread of what has killed college debate into the HS realm.  I?m not naive
> enough to think that my one person stand will have such an impact, but I
> hope that after the inevitable collapse of college debate, more people will
> realize we need to return to a more traditional style of debate.  This does
> not mean that we need to get rid of critical arguments, it just means that
> such arguments need to be made in the context of the resolution.   * The
> views expressed above are my own and do not reflect the views of Bethel
> Parks SD, Bethel Park SHS, or my employer.   John M. Masslon II, Esq.
> Policy Debate Coach, Bethel Park SHS *
>
> phone: 703-791-9483
> fax: 866-241-5219
> e-mail: johnmasslon at gmail.com
> -------------- next part --------------
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> ------------------------------
>
> Message: 2
> Date: Wed, 18 Dec 2013 11:06:26 -0500
> From: Stefan Bauschard <stefan.bauschard at gmail.com>
> To: "John M. Masslon II" <johnmasslon at gmail.com>
> Cc: "ndca-l at lists.debatecoaches.org" <ndca-l at lists.debatecoaches.org>
> Subject: Re: [Ndca-l] Issues concerning the high school community
> Message-ID:
>         <
> CAJnpfy01M2v2k__NktLiapgTP95Cpw67u+vNeV6E8WcaCKpv5A at mail.gmail.com>
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="windows-1252"
>
> I like the fact that this conversation is occurring on email because this
> listserv is, I believe, limited to debate coaches. I think people are more
> likely to speak what is on their minds than if this discussion is moved to
> a public message board.
>
> Also, I'm a bit sensitive to coaches airing all of their disagreements
> (which is important to do) in front of all of the students.
>
> I'm curious as to what others think.
>
>
> On Wed, Dec 18, 2013 at 9:48 AM, John M. Masslon II
> <johnmasslon at gmail.com>wrote:
>
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > *I think this is by far the most pressing issue facing HS debate at the
> > moment and am glad to see that a discussion has begun regarding our
> > community?s response.  I wish I could be as eloquent and thorough as
> > Manuel, Stefan, Aaron, Tara, et al, but I know that will not happen.  I
> > would, however, like to add a few of my thoughts on the subject.
>  First,
> > I think we need to begin is by looking in the mirror.  I believe that
> many
> > of the problems that have occurred in college debate are the result of
> > coaches pushing the unethical, and in some cases illegal, behavior by
> their
> > students.  We only need to look as far as the CEDA quarterfinal round a
> few
> > years ago to see that we, as coaches, are the ones that act in a manner
> > that makes debate a hostile environment for fellow coaches and our
> > students.  This is unacceptable.  I believe that the first step we should
> > take in ensuring that there is no bullying, harassment, etc. by our
> > students is to take forceful action against coaches that promote such
> > behavior.   I know this will not be a popular sentiment, but I think we
> > need to ban coaches who promote such behavior.  I run the tab room at the
> > biggest HS tournament in Western Pennsylvania, and I would never allow
> > Shanara Reid-Brinkley to step foot in a debate at my tournament.  If she
> > chose to coach a HS team, I would not allow that team to be entered in
> the
> > tournament.  The same would hold true for Bill Shanahan.  By eliminating
> > coaches that act in such a manner from our activity, we ensure that these
> > our students are not being influenced by such bad examples.  We set a
> > precedent for our students that if you act in a manner that is
> inconsistent
> > with the behavioral norms of debate, you are gone.  Thus, let us begin by
> > looking in the mirror. I also think that it is important that we ensure
> > that students who violate the norms of acceptable behavior at debate
> > tournaments are punished accordingly.  For example, if a student tells
> > his/her opponent in a round that they should kill themselves . that
> student
> > should be done with HS debate.  That student?s coach should be the one to
> > enforce such a rule, however, that is probably unrealistic.  Instead, I
> > think that if a student behaves in such a manner at a tournament, the
> > tournament director should inform all other tournament directors to not
> > accept that student into future tournaments.  That way, a student knows
> > that if their actions fall so far outside the bounds of acceptable
> > behavior, they will no longer be permitted to participate in this great
> > activity.   Finally, I think that the tabula rasa paradigm has gone to
> far.
> >  I have traditionally been a fan of ?anything goes? debate and have voted
> > for ?performance? teams more than I have voted against such teams.
> >  However, after what we have seen in college debate recently, I have
> > decided that enough is enough.  I have decided that I will no longer vote
> > for such a team and will give them 0 speaks.  I hope that this stops the
> > spread of what has killed college debate into the HS realm.  I?m not
> naive
> > enough to think that my one person stand will have such an impact, but I
> > hope that after the inevitable collapse of college debate, more people
> will
> > realize we need to return to a more traditional style of debate.  This
> does
> > not mean that we need to get rid of critical arguments, it just means
> that
> > such arguments need to be made in the context of the resolution.   * The
> > views expressed above are my own and do not reflect the views of Bethel
> > Parks SD, Bethel Park SHS, or my employer.   John M. Masslon II, Esq.
> > Policy Debate Coach, Bethel Park SHS *
> >
> > phone: 703-791-9483
> > fax: 866-241-5219
> > e-mail: johnmasslon at gmail.com
> >
> >
> >
> > _______________________________________________
> > Ndca-l mailing list
> > Ndca-l at lists.debatecoaches.org
> > http://lists.debatecoaches.org/listinfo.cgi/ndca-l-debatecoaches.org
> >
> >
>
>
> --
> Stefan Bauschard
>
> Debate Coach, Harvard Debate
> Debate Coach, Lakeland Schools
> International Programs Consultant, National Forensic League (US)
> Consultant, National Forensic League of Korea (ROK)
> Consultant, Dipont Education Management (China)
>
> (C) 781-775-0433
> (F) 617-588-0283
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> End of Ndca-l Digest, Vol 57, Issue 14
> **************************************
>



-- 
Sara B. Sanchez
Director of Debate
Lexington High School
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