[Ndca-l] Ndca-l Digest, Vol 57, Issue 14

Sheila Peterson sheilaelizabeth
Wed Dec 18 13:36:07 EST 2013


I have many thoughts on this issue, but most immediately I want to note that 1)  I was not at Dowling this weekend because I needed to finish up grading; and 2)  I've only recently come to learn from my staff (perhaps prompted by this discussion) that a Wayzata team ran a controversial argument at Dowling without my knowledge or the knowledge of the vast majority of my assistant coaches.  To the extent this alleviates anyone's concerns about that particular debate, I thought people should know that Wayzata will be putting in place constraints that will hopefully prevent recurrence of this problem.

I assume most people know me well enough to give Wayzata the benefit of the doubt, but rest assured, I'm in the community's corner on the importance of this issue.

From: slcathena at gmail.com
Date: Wed, 18 Dec 2013 13:05:00 -0500
To: ndca-l at lists.debatecoaches.org
Subject: Re: [Ndca-l] Ndca-l Digest, Vol 57, Issue 14

I agree with Stefan's sentiment that this conversation should be limited to the listserv right now.  I've been very hesitant to post on facebook because I think the conversations have gotten too heated and are easily taken out of context.  I think we are more likely to get feedback from educators if this conversation continues in this more limited format.


I also second the thought about this being a conversation for coaches and not debaters right now.
Sara



On Wed, Dec 18, 2013 at 11:06 AM,  <ndca-l-request at lists.debatecoaches.org> wrote:


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Today's Topics:



   1. Re: Issues concerning the high school community

      (John M. Masslon II)

   2. Re: Issues concerning the high school community (Stefan Bauschard)





----------------------------------------------------------------------



Message: 1

Date: Wed, 18 Dec 2013 09:48:24 -0500

From: "John M. Masslon II" <johnmasslon at gmail.com>

Cc: "ndca-l at lists.debatecoaches.org" <ndca-l at lists.debatecoaches.org>

Subject: Re: [Ndca-l] Issues concerning the high school community

Message-ID:

        <CAMvL_nU7n=afcD2WyU==WQDc5r_2OFWxyQy-bXzEjgOAa9JQBQ at mail.gmail.com>

Content-Type: text/plain; charset="windows-1252"



*I think this is by far the most pressing issue facing HS debate at the

moment and am glad to see that a discussion has begun regarding our

community?s response.  I wish I could be as eloquent and thorough as

Manuel, Stefan, Aaron, Tara, et al, but I know that will not happen.  I

would, however, like to add a few of my thoughts on the subject.    First,

I think we need to begin is by looking in the mirror.  I believe that many

of the problems that have occurred in college debate are the result of

coaches pushing the unethical, and in some cases illegal, behavior by their

students.  We only need to look as far as the CEDA quarterfinal round a few

years ago to see that we, as coaches, are the ones that act in a manner

that makes debate a hostile environment for fellow coaches and our

students.  This is unacceptable.  I believe that the first step we should

take in ensuring that there is no bullying, harassment, etc. by our

students is to take forceful action against coaches that promote such

behavior.   I know this will not be a popular sentiment, but I think we

need to ban coaches who promote such behavior.  I run the tab room at the

biggest HS tournament in Western Pennsylvania, and I would never allow

Shanara Reid-Brinkley to step foot in a debate at my tournament.  If she

chose to coach a HS team, I would not allow that team to be entered in the

tournament.  The same would hold true for Bill Shanahan.  By eliminating

coaches that act in such a manner from our activity, we ensure that these

our students are not being influenced by such bad examples.  We set a

precedent for our students that if you act in a manner that is inconsistent

with the behavioral norms of debate, you are gone.  Thus, let us begin by

looking in the mirror. I also think that it is important that we ensure

that students who violate the norms of acceptable behavior at debate

tournaments are punished accordingly.  For example, if a student tells

his/her opponent in a round that they should kill themselves . that student

should be done with HS debate.  That student?s coach should be the one to

enforce such a rule, however, that is probably unrealistic.  Instead, I

think that if a student behaves in such a manner at a tournament, the

tournament director should inform all other tournament directors to not

accept that student into future tournaments.  That way, a student knows

that if their actions fall so far outside the bounds of acceptable

behavior, they will no longer be permitted to participate in this great

activity.   Finally, I think that the tabula rasa paradigm has gone to far.

 I have traditionally been a fan of ?anything goes? debate and have voted

for ?performance? teams more than I have voted against such teams.

 However, after what we have seen in college debate recently, I have

decided that enough is enough.  I have decided that I will no longer vote

for such a team and will give them 0 speaks.  I hope that this stops the

spread of what has killed college debate into the HS realm.  I?m not naive

enough to think that my one person stand will have such an impact, but I

hope that after the inevitable collapse of college debate, more people will

realize we need to return to a more traditional style of debate.  This does

not mean that we need to get rid of critical arguments, it just means that

such arguments need to be made in the context of the resolution.   * The

views expressed above are my own and do not reflect the views of Bethel

Parks SD, Bethel Park SHS, or my employer.   John M. Masslon II, Esq.

Policy Debate Coach, Bethel Park SHS *



phone: 703-791-9483

fax: 866-241-5219

e-mail: johnmasslon at gmail.com

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Message: 2

Date: Wed, 18 Dec 2013 11:06:26 -0500

From: Stefan Bauschard <stefan.bauschard at gmail.com>

To: "John M. Masslon II" <johnmasslon at gmail.com>

Cc: "ndca-l at lists.debatecoaches.org" <ndca-l at lists.debatecoaches.org>

Subject: Re: [Ndca-l] Issues concerning the high school community

Message-ID:

        <CAJnpfy01M2v2k__NktLiapgTP95Cpw67u+vNeV6E8WcaCKpv5A at mail.gmail.com>

Content-Type: text/plain; charset="windows-1252"



I like the fact that this conversation is occurring on email because this

listserv is, I believe, limited to debate coaches. I think people are more

likely to speak what is on their minds than if this discussion is moved to

a public message board.



Also, I'm a bit sensitive to coaches airing all of their disagreements

(which is important to do) in front of all of the students.



I'm curious as to what others think.





On Wed, Dec 18, 2013 at 9:48 AM, John M. Masslon II

<johnmasslon at gmail.com>wrote:



>

>

>

>

>

>

> *I think this is by far the most pressing issue facing HS debate at the

> moment and am glad to see that a discussion has begun regarding our

> community?s response.  I wish I could be as eloquent and thorough as

> Manuel, Stefan, Aaron, Tara, et al, but I know that will not happen.  I

> would, however, like to add a few of my thoughts on the subject.    First,

> I think we need to begin is by looking in the mirror.  I believe that many

> of the problems that have occurred in college debate are the result of

> coaches pushing the unethical, and in some cases illegal, behavior by their

> students.  We only need to look as far as the CEDA quarterfinal round a few

> years ago to see that we, as coaches, are the ones that act in a manner

> that makes debate a hostile environment for fellow coaches and our

> students.  This is unacceptable.  I believe that the first step we should

> take in ensuring that there is no bullying, harassment, etc. by our

> students is to take forceful action against coaches that promote such

> behavior.   I know this will not be a popular sentiment, but I think we

> need to ban coaches who promote such behavior.  I run the tab room at the

> biggest HS tournament in Western Pennsylvania, and I would never allow

> Shanara Reid-Brinkley to step foot in a debate at my tournament.  If she

> chose to coach a HS team, I would not allow that team to be entered in the

> tournament.  The same would hold true for Bill Shanahan.  By eliminating

> coaches that act in such a manner from our activity, we ensure that these

> our students are not being influenced by such bad examples.  We set a

> precedent for our students that if you act in a manner that is inconsistent

> with the behavioral norms of debate, you are gone.  Thus, let us begin by

> looking in the mirror. I also think that it is important that we ensure

> that students who violate the norms of acceptable behavior at debate

> tournaments are punished accordingly.  For example, if a student tells

> his/her opponent in a round that they should kill themselves . that student

> should be done with HS debate.  That student?s coach should be the one to

> enforce such a rule, however, that is probably unrealistic.  Instead, I

> think that if a student behaves in such a manner at a tournament, the

> tournament director should inform all other tournament directors to not

> accept that student into future tournaments.  That way, a student knows

> that if their actions fall so far outside the bounds of acceptable

> behavior, they will no longer be permitted to participate in this great

> activity.   Finally, I think that the tabula rasa paradigm has gone to far.

>  I have traditionally been a fan of ?anything goes? debate and have voted

> for ?performance? teams more than I have voted against such teams.

>  However, after what we have seen in college debate recently, I have

> decided that enough is enough.  I have decided that I will no longer vote

> for such a team and will give them 0 speaks.  I hope that this stops the

> spread of what has killed college debate into the HS realm.  I?m not naive

> enough to think that my one person stand will have such an impact, but I

> hope that after the inevitable collapse of college debate, more people will

> realize we need to return to a more traditional style of debate.  This does

> not mean that we need to get rid of critical arguments, it just means that

> such arguments need to be made in the context of the resolution.   * The

> views expressed above are my own and do not reflect the views of Bethel

> Parks SD, Bethel Park SHS, or my employer.   John M. Masslon II, Esq.

> Policy Debate Coach, Bethel Park SHS *

>

> phone: 703-791-9483

> fax: 866-241-5219

> e-mail: johnmasslon at gmail.com

>

>

>

> _______________________________________________

> Ndca-l mailing list

> Ndca-l at lists.debatecoaches.org

> http://lists.debatecoaches.org/listinfo.cgi/ndca-l-debatecoaches.org

>

>





--

Stefan Bauschard



Debate Coach, Harvard Debate

Debate Coach, Lakeland Schools

International Programs Consultant, National Forensic League (US)

Consultant, National Forensic League of Korea (ROK)

Consultant, Dipont Education Management (China)



(C) 781-775-0433

(F) 617-588-0283

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End of Ndca-l Digest, Vol 57, Issue 14

**************************************



-- 
Sara B. Sanchez
Director of Debate
Lexington High School


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